Typed Transcript of Linda Wickerman's Notes:
Alex Hunter = Boulder County District Attorney
Lee Hill = Attorney for "the witness" (aka Mystery Woman)
Stephen Singular = Book Author (Talked to "the witness" 02-15-2000)
Barrie Hartman =
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Linda Wickman's Interview Notes regarding "the witness"
Alex Hunter, Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, Barrie Hartman, Linda Wickman
Meeting 02-16-2000:
DA Document #1 Page 1 of 9
On February 16, 2000 this investigator accompanied District Attorney Alex Hunter to a meeting. The other people present were Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, and Barrie Hartman. The meeting began about 4:10 pm.
Lee Hill intially explained that he had been retained to represent a person who has evidence and testimony about the Ramsey investigation and other criminal activity. According to Mr. Hill, this unnamed person could meet with serious consequences if they come forward. He stated that he has been able to corroborate some of the information his witness has and thinks the information is legitimate. He thinks his witness is correctly motivated who has no criminal record. Mr. Hill further commented that other criminal activity would swiftly draw the force back to this case.
The challenge, as Lee Hill sees it, is to put a witness protectoin program in place in the other jurisdiction. This process has been started. He thinks his client is reasonably anxious. Mr. Hill is limited to some degree in how much he can say. He asked Stephen Singular to continue.
Stephen Singular stated that he had a number of questions to put to Alex Hunter. Singular asked if there was interest in investigation the White family. Mr. Hunter stated that he would investigate the Hartman family if it was indicated. Singular asked if the Whites had been actively been investigated. Mr. Hunter replied that they had been actively investigated, although not 100%. Singular said that about three years ago Alex Hunter had some interst in Daphne White, and asked if there was interest in pursing this further.
Alex Hunter then stated that he wanted to hear what Mr. Singular had to say first, then would consider answering Singular's questions. He stated that his first goal was concerning JonBenet's death. He said he had an open mind to anything that might advance the case.
Stephen Singular then stated that he it to be on record that he didn't think the Ramsey's or an intruder killed JonBenet. He thinks other things need investigated. He referred to the exploitation of children and a subculture that JonBenet was exposed to that he didn't think had been investigated. He further stated that he had five names of people connected to pornography who have come connection to the Ramseys or the Ramsey group. He said that he had information from Boulder Police Det. Ron Gosage that this had not been investigated. If there was to be a dialogue Mr. Singular wanted an indication of some baseline interest. He wanted to put this topic on the table and kick it around without names.
Alex Hunter responded that he was interested in any (???) to Fleet White.
Linda Wickman's Interview Notes regarding "the witness"
Alex Hunter, Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, Barrie Hartman, Linda Wickman
Meeting 02-16-2000:
DA Document #1 Page 2 of 9
Mr. Hill commented again that he didn't know about the witness' safety, and that HER safety could already be compromised.
Alex Hunter stated that Det. Gosage and Sgt. Wickman were out of the investigation at this time. He would want to rely on the police, if indicated, and would probably contact Det. Tom Trujillo.
Lee Hill said that his witness had a life-long relationship to the White family that has been demonstrated and is continuing. Her testimony and information would send all of her immediate family members (fleet White's family) to prison. This allegations deal with abuse, sexual abuse, and molestation. This abuse is ritualistic, routine, and systematic, beginning at the age of three.
Mr. Hill stated that he was referring to his witness being a victim as well as being involved in other activity. This activity involves two generations, and has gone into a third generation. Daphne White would be in the third generation. The witness could also provide additional names of people who were at the White's party. There is a good chance that these people would add other names to the victim list. Mr. Hill then stated that if there was hair on the cord he thought he knew who it belonged to. The witness would also have other inforamtion that would go to "other" activity.
Stephen Singular interjected that if a search warrant were served now, it might obtain evidence.
Alex Hunter asked Mr. Hill how this was related to his client. What was the connection? Was this person a prior California person? Is she now a Colorado person?
Lee Hill said he had learned something he wanted to check out. He said he had talked to some reporters. He asked when did the Ramseys meet the Whites for the first time? Mr. Hill thinks they knew each other before. He referred to entries made, visitors and gift senders to a birth, and testimony from his client. He further stated that the break down of communicaiton between the families was just superfuge. Much of the secaration was for show; just an apparent separation.
According to Stephen Singular, they have a person (the witness) who is involved as a victim of illegal sex for a long period of time with family members and the Whites earlier in her life. This was as a small child, a teenager. The witness is now a woman approaching 40 years of age. She is willing to come forward to use her information agianst relatives. These relatives have direct involvement with the Ramseys and have knowledge about this case.
Singular stated he has only talked with the witness by telephone. She presented a scenario with this case. She has connections to people who are vulnerable in the Ramsey case. The
Linda Wickman's Interview Notes regarding "the witness"
Alex Hunter, Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, Barrie Hartman, Linda Wickman
Meeting 02-16-2000:
DA Document #1 Page 3 of 9
"other" people she wants to talk about may want to talk if they were in legal trouble. Singular talked with the witness on February 15, 2000. She was writing out her information. The witness' mother is culpable in various ways. White, SENIOR, in California, apparently found out aobut the witness and reportedly offered the witness $50,000 to keep quiet. He subsequently offered her $75,000. This was in the past two days.
Lee Hill referred to an interview on FOX news, and the publication of a John Ramsey interview in which he denied any confrontation.
Stephen Singular said that Fleet White, Jr. acknowledge to other people that an altercation happened, and that it was so "hot" that a gun had been introduced.
Lee hill stated that he is normally skeptical about witnesses reporting abuse, but is not skeptical about this witness.
Alex Hunter asked if the witness had any motive to come forward?
Lee Hill replied that , yes, she did. It was to protect the now eight year old family member who was at the White party, and is now in the same position the witness was. The eight year old lived here at the time of the party. His client is worred about the eight year old, who is currently overseas. The client/witness is worried because of old family repeated patterns of sexual abuse.
Lee Hill mentioned the use of ligatures. He said that one of the driving elements in this type of sexual abuse is to evoke a sexual response in a young child by restricting their air. His client claimed that this technique was used on her as a child as part of the ritual. The ritual would frequent occur on holidays. He commented that the witness was not in Stephen Singular's book. These things are corroborated by the witness' mental health professional for over ten years. According to Hill's client, in her experience, whenever a child didn't respond, they were rapped in the head because the hair would cover the bruising. The witness had family members who claim they were there during the assault on JonBenet. Two family members were present in the house.
Lee Hill stated that there were three girls who were passed around at the White's house. The Ramseys had gone to the White's house. This is the site where the fatal events occurred.
Stephen Singular interjected that he had a different view of things. He didn't think the crime was committed at the White's residence. He thinks that there were three people present when JonBenet was killed. Fleet White, the video person who lives in this area, and the killer who doesn't live in this area. The witness has said that her family members were involved with the Whites and the Ramseys in general.
Linda Wickman's Interview Notes regarding "the witness"
Alex Hunter, Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, Barrie Hartman, Linda Wickman
Meeting 02-16-2000:
DA Document #1 Page 4 of 9
Singular mentioned four specific points:
a. When the witness' then five year old relative stayed wiith her on an occasion, the five year old screamed for an hour and one half that they're going to kill me, they killed her, over and over.
b. The above combined with the phone dialogue between the witness and the witness' mother. The mother had been present at the White's house on the night of the murder.
c. The witness' own experience growing up in California.
d. Evidence of sexual abuse and other abuse.
According to Singular, the witness has participated in a sexual abuse prosecution in the past and has sent a man to prison.
Alex Hunter asked if the witness had authorized Lee hill to say that she would come forward against her family? Lee Hill replied, yes. Alex Hunter then asked if the witness' therapist thought that the witness was ready for this? Lee Hill replied, yes.
Lee Hill said the witness saw him on FOX. He met with the witness and the witness' therapist. He received the call late Tuesday, 02/15/00. The witness provided him with much information and he begged Mr. Hill to check it out.
Stephen Singular stated he doesn't think the details the witness provides are important. BUT THE CONNECTION TO PEOPLE IN THIS REALM ARE.
Linda Wickman's Interview Notes regarding "the witness"
Alex Hunter, Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, Barrie Hartman, Linda Wickman
Meeting 02-16-2000:
DA Document #1 Page 5 of 9
Alex Hunter asked if the witness was claiming that Fleet White, Jr. had sexually assulted her in the past?
Lee Hill replied, yes. In addition to Fleet White, Sr. and other people. The scenario is broader than the family. A prep, similar to an izon has occasionally come into play, reportedly to scare small children. It is unknown if this is a cult, church, or other religious sect. It is related to the "kink" that links the perverse sexual fetish the family uses. The events were filmed. They are attended by a close, exclusive group. The witness has told this to her therapist consistantly for over ten years. There is reportedly a business aspect to this also. It is unknown how large. He further commented that an offer of money like this is a test question to keep track of the witness' mood. White told her to accept the money. She told him, no. His next question was, you mean you aren't going to talk? White, Sr, wants the witness to go to Aspen with him immediately.
Barrie Hartman asked if the witness' life was in danger if she accepted the money" Lee Hill replied, yes.
Lee Hill explained that in California conversations can't be recorded without law enforcement involvement. The witness also lives with a family member who watches her.
Alex Hunter asked if there was anyting else about the crime scene, (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
Stephen Singular said he had questions for Alex Hunter:
a. Do you know who was at the Ramsey's 12/23 party? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
b. Do you know who gave JonBenet the teddy bear? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
c. Is this relevant? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
d. Singular said he didn't think anyone in the White or Ramsey family gave the bear. He said he thought there was a note in the bear. (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
e. Singular said he thought the bear was relevant as a gift for some favor later on in the week. (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
f. Do you know everyone who was at the White's house? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
g. Have all of the hair samples been identified? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
h. Have samples of Daphne's hair been tested? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
i. Is there evidence that JonBenet was tied to something that (???) (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
Linda Wickman's Interview Notes regarding "the witness"
Alex Hunter, Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, Barrie Hartman, Linda Wickman
Meeting 02-16-2000:
DA Document #1 Page 6 of 9
j. It is pce. ple? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
k. Any fibers not identified? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
l. Wood?
m. Did Fleet White have an alibi for later that night?
n. Do you believe his story?
o. Was it corroborated by anyone besides Priscilla? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
p. Have you seen Chris Wolf's computer hard drive? (BLACKED OUT TEXT) Singular comments that he thinks Wolfe has knowledge of the participants.
Alex Hunter asked if Singular had any information that Chris Wolf was connected?
Singular replied that Chris Wolfe's girlfriend thinks Wolfe is a person with knowledge. She doesn't think Wolfe was present or participated.
q. Singular asks if anyone had looked on the internet for pictures of Daphne White? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
Barrie Hartman commented that there were over 23,000 webb sites on pornography.
r. Singular asked if it was known who put JonBenet to bed that night? (BLACKED OUT TEXT)
Singular said that he thought that the crime occurred elsewhere. JonBenet was killed, brought home and given to John Ramsey. The scene was staged.
The client connects John Ramsey to abuse. She has said she was abused by John Ramsey earlier in her life. The therapist had said that the witness' statements about this have been consistent over ten years. The witness would say that John Ramsey had a social and sexual relationship with the witness' mother prior to his relationship with Patsy.
Stephen Singular repeated that in his opinion the only value of this is to use this witness to put someone into a legal problem to get the suspect to talk.
Lee Hill said that the witness may be confussed about John Ramsey, but that he believed her. Mr. Hill said that many of the details of the witness statements can be checked out. You don't
Linda Wickman's Interview Notes regarding "the witness"
Alex Hunter, Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, Barrie Hartman, Linda Wickman
Meeting 02-16-2000:
DA Document #1 Page 7 of 9
have to believe her, you can check it out; the prior criminal case, prior cooperation with law enforcement, she was made a ward of the cort in her earlier life, the therapist's reputatiojn. The therapist is a counselar with a master's degree.
Mr. Hill further stated that the now eight year old is in Europe with a family member who has knowingly put the child at risk. The witness has not said that a family member is directly abusing the eight year old.
Alex Hunter asked if McReynolds fit in at all?
Singular replied, no, he is not relevant. His theory includes the following:
That there was a visible flash point/explosive behavior between the two men;
-the child was brought home dead;
-within 48 hours John Ramsey was a prime suspect;
-Ramsey confronts White;
-end of the relationship.
A variation of this is what happened.
According to Lee Hill, the witness is not focused on the Ramseys. She is focused on her eight year old niece and the niece's continued exposure to danger.
Lee Hill said the witness claims there have been other deaths. He met face to face with the witness and the therapist for five hours. It was plain to Mr. Hill that he could have spent two weeks considering the extent of the crimes. The witness was able and did differentiate between childhood events and those more current. According to the witness, the timing of the Ramsey abuse was when John Ramsey was in his 20's to mid 30's.
Stephen Singular mentioned a male putting pornography on CD's. The witness knows this man through her mother. Her mother was at the Christmas party. The mother was visiting a family member.
Lee Hill commented that there was a motive to obscure their presence at the party. The witness was made a ward of the court early in life. She did not have a wealthy life. Later in life she sent a man to prision. The names aren't connected to the White's except at the party. The only purpose for being at the party on 12/25 was to bring the five year old for "entertainment."
Singular said again that he thought the teddy bear was connected to people who were involved a couple of days later. (BLACKED OUT TEXT) He said that prominent people in Colorado were involved with this child in various venues. There was a pattern of behavior. JonBenet was trained to entertain and interact with adult males. JonBenet had a circle of contacts, some not interacting with JonBenet appropriately, such as her 20 year old brother and others. Some contacts connect her to other
Linda Wickman's Interview Notes regarding "the witness"
Alex Hunter, Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, Barrie Hartman, Linda Wickman
Meeting 02-16-2000:
DA Document #1 Page 8 of 9
people. That circle was involved in JonBenet's death.
Lee Hill said he has reviewed photos of the witness when she was six years old. The witness was the splitting image of JonBenet, he also saw snapshots of the then five year old niece wearing lipstick and a boa (feathers). The five year old looked like a completely different child in her school photos.
Alex Hunter commented that he could see that Stephen Singular was passionate about the Boulder connection. He asked why Singular was passionate about prominent people in Boulder?
Singular asked if anyone has checked on (BLACKED OUT TEXT). He further commented that if Lee Hill's witness is established, the rest can go out the window.
Lee Hill stated that he wanted to hand this off to law enforcement to check out as soon as possible.
Alex Hunter agreed that these things needed worked prompltly.
Lee Hill commented that if a fraction of the statements are true, the witness could be in danger. He has already spoken with California authorities, and they are about to interview the witness.
Alex Hunter stated he would like to have joint interviews. He asked when Mr. Hill would be talking with California authorities?
Lee Hill replied that everything was new. There have been no interviews yet, but they are interested.
Alex Hunter said that there should be a link with the California people sooner than later. Lee Hill said they were working with a sheriff's office. Alex Hunter proposed Det. Tom Trujillo be linked to this as soon as possible. Lee Hill asked for a few hours.
Alex Hunter asked how fragile the witness was. Lee Hill replied the therapist commented favorable about the witness' status. Lee Hill has four hours of interview with the witness and his correspondence that correborates the connection to the White family. Alex Hunter asked about the 20's link to John Ramsey. Lee Hill stated that it was on tape. The witness claims JonBenet was partially named after her.
Barrie Hartman commented that Lee Hill and Stephen Singular have expressed frustration with the Boulder Police Department.
Lee Hill stated he wanted a day to get things in place and he would get with Alex.
Barrie Hartman asks if the newspapeer could blast the BPD if they don't pursue this. Alex replied, yes, and commented that this
Linda Wickman's Interview Notes regarding "the witness"
Alex Hunter, Lee Hill, Stephen Singular, Barrie Hartman, Linda Wickman
Meeting 02-16-2000:
DA Document #1 Page 9 of 9
was probably a grand jury type of case. Mr. Hartman asked if anyone had talked to Fleet White recently? Alex Hunter replied, no. Apparently Fleet White has put pressure on Boulder County Commissioner Paul Danish, among others, not to authorize more money for this investigation.
Barrie Hartman asked Lee Hill and Stephen Singular if John Ramsey knew Fleet White was involved in the murder of JonBenet, why would be protect him? Lee Hill replied, because John Ramsey shares culpability.
The meeting ended about 6:20 p.m.
On 021600, about 4:00 p.m. I received a phone call from Lee Hill. He told me that he was trying to move this matter along. He wanted to share the recorded statement and video of the photos and other documents. There has been movement in California at the sheriff's office from one specialized unit to another, although it is not complete yet.
The witness is warming to the idea of meeting with Colorado authorities directly. Lee has learned from the therapist that there will be a couple of things on the witness' local record that will show up. The local record notes the witness as *5150* or "crazy" when she attempted to file reports in the past at a couple of law enforcement agencies. According to the therapist, the witness is not delusional or schizophrenic. There are explanations for each of these incidences. The witness was under the influence of medicaitons in one incident. Lee will explain further.
Mr. Hill expects to have clearance before the end of the day from the witness and the therapist to go forward further. He is stikll waiting on the protection issue.
This information was relayed to Mr. Hunter the same day.
Submitted by
Linda R. Wickman
Ch. Investigator
Boulder District Attorney's Office
Hand Notations:
Prepared 2-20-00
Submitted to (??) 2-22-00
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